The Feel Good Wedding Podcast by Polka Dot Wedding
The Feel Good Wedding Podcast by Polka Dot Wedding
#9 Talking Business: Creating Healthy Relationships With Your Clients, Yourself & Your Work With Wedding Photographer Joel Mailo
The pandemic has not been kind to the wedding industry. Businesses were hit hard. Dorothy (she/her) sat down with Joel Mailo (he/him) of Sydney photography studio Ava Me Photography, to talk about his career as a wedding photographer, his reflections during the pandemic, and his secret to building good rapport with clients.
Joel is a seasoned wedding photographer at Ava Me Photography for seven years now. His interest in photography began when his first child, Ava, was born. On Facebook, people complimented pictures of his daughter. From then on, he started learning how to work the camera, eventually finding his niche in wedding photography.
In this chat we discuss:
- Joel’s start in wedding photography
- Building and managing client relationships
- How to capture candid moments
- Wedding day tips for photographers
- Business reflections during COVID-19
- Advice for wedding vendors & businesses
Joel’s photos always turn out amazing because he’s able to build strong bonds with couples. How does he do it? He shares, “During my meetings, there's no pressure tactics or anything. It's just this nice casual chat about their wedding day. And that's how we start.
Besides continuing the conversation, you're always trying to touch base with clients. And if they do touch base with you, just to give them as much information as possible. Then there's other things such as pre-wedding shoots that you do. And they're probably the most important ones, because the pre-wedding should really help couples see how you work, get to know you a bit more, and just see that dynamic of a couple photographer and how it's going to work on their wedding day.”
Links Mentioned & Find Joel:
Ava Me Photography on Polka Dot Wedding
Find Dorothy & the Polka Dot Wedding team:
On Instagram: @polkadotwedding
On the website: polkadotwedding.com
For full transcript and show notes visit: polkadotwedding.com/podcast
Wedding pro? Join our membership here.
The Polka Dot Wedding team is honoured to conduct our work on the land of the BoonWurrung, WoiWorung, Eora and Kuring-gai people. We honour the traditional Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders custodians of the land and pay our respects to Elders past & present.
Dorothy:
00:01
Welcome to the Feel Good Wedding Podcast by Polka Dot Wedding.
While Polka Dot Wedding was born out of my obsession around weddings, it has become so much more. While there's dresses and fashion and pretty things and cakes and flowers and venues and all the things that we love and talk about with weddings, there is at the core of it a business. And the business that has broken every part of me and built me back up over the last 15 years. And not without a lot of help. There have been so many coaches and mentors and educators and amazing people that have been a part of that. And there have been amazing wedding pros that I learned from and inspired by each and every day. So we wanted to drop in a few episodes through the Feel Good Wedding Podcasts that explore just that. We wanted to talk about the difficulties that come with running your own business. We wanted to talk about how do we improve our businesses.
We wanted to talk about things like diversity and inclusion and aligning our business to your own values. We wanted to have the tricky discussions and we can't wait to get started.
The Polka Dot Wedding team is honoured to conduct our work on the land of the BoonWurrung, WoiWorung, Eora and Kuring-gai people. We honour the traditional Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander custodians of the land and pay our respects to Elders past and present.
Hello and welcome. I'm so excited to introduce you to today's guest today. His name is Joel Mailo and he's a Sydney based wedding photographer that we've been working with at Polka Dot Wedding since 2017. Joel has his beautiful moodiness to his work, he captures moments really candidly. And he does that off building a really great connection with his couples.
So today we're diving into everything business with Joel, from how he builds that connection and to what makes him tick. We're really excited for this one. I can't wait for you to listen. Hello, Joel, thank you so much for joining me today.
01:42
It's a pleasure.
01:45
I am so excited to chat to you today about your work as a wedding photographer and your business. But I want to get started with a little about you. So you're a dad, a husband, and a photographer. So tell us about yourself. Who is Joel Mailo?
02:10
Big question. Yes, it is true. I am a dad. I've sort of small-ish but still big-ish kids are five and five and seven, over seven. And they were obviously the namesake of the whole enterprise. And Jacob is five. And yeah, must have been married for about almost 10 years now. So yeah, that's that's me personally, but I don't know. Should I mention my age?
02:32
Well, it's up to you. A woman never tells her age, but maybe, you know, you'd like to tell their age nowadays?
02:39
No, not me. I'm not, I'm not too young. But I'm also not too old. I guess I'll just, I'll just leave it at that.
02:45
Let me straight, keep me straight. You got started with wedding photography, from my understanding is from photographing your daughter and putting those pictures up on Facebook. Is that what led you into capturing weddings every weekend?
02:57
Yes, yes. So I tell this story a lot. I mean, to almost all my couples, but I did start photographing my daughter when she was a newborn. That's how I really I started because before she was born, I I had this shiny brand new camera that I used. I actually didn't know how to use it. I was just, you know, just just shooting and just playing around really. I wasn't taking it too seriously.
And then when my daughter arrived, I guess I started taking some decent pics because people started noticing on Facebook and people were like, oh, that's that's so nice. And I mean, I guess they were pretty good. And but what happened was, as I progressed through that, those first few months of my daughter's life, I was assigned to learn, you know how to shoot. And I started looking at other photographers, and you know, naturally, you'd look at family photographers, but then you sort of start looking at wedding photographers. And you're like, oh, that's, that's nice, you know, they started popping up in your feed. And then that's how the, I guess I started getting a taste of what wedding photography is. And that was how it all started.
03:54
So tell me about your first wedding booking.
03:57
So my first wedding booking was actually my cousin's wedding. So he obviously noticed my daughter's photos on Facebook, and also you know, through other sharing platforms. And he asked me to do you know, what do you think about photographing my wedding? and I thought, oh, you know, what the hell? Let's let's do it. Yeah. You know, like, you sort of don't think, you think you're invincible. And you'll take it on. It wasn't actually a very great experience to be honest. His wedding, probably a bit of a, you know, it just dragged me back to Earth, really. In terms of, you know, I thought it was going to be awesome. That was actually full of, full of, a lot of pain. But yeah, that was that was my very first wedding. My cousin's wedding. A lot of those photos I forget now. I still have the gallery but I look through and I cringe at every photo. There might be just one or two that I think are worthy of putting on a wall but the rest probably, yeah, just I just sort of keep on low.
04:56
Which is funny though, because I feel like we've worked with you at Polka Dot Wedding since 2017, I looked it up today. And your style has remained really, really consistent for us. Well, what I've seen. And opposed to, often I'll find someone who will start out, their style will change as the wind blows, and it will, you know, as they see new things, or they obviously get more experienced that they change, and you can't recognize their work from beginning to end, whereas yours has been really consistent. So how did you find that style then? And how did you stick with it?
05:26
Yeah, I don't know. I guess in terms of my style, I've always been attracted to the vibrant and the colourful and the bright stuff. But that's not to say that I don't indulge in some of the more moody and some of the, you know, some of the other stuff that goes around, you know, that catches your eye every so often. But then, you know, you just naturally come back to what you were, what I was sort of the style I was doing before. And, you know, that's what's happened with my wedding career. You know, people say, oh, hey, try this. Try that. And I do try it. But then I seem to think, oh, no, I think I'll just get back to, you know, what I was doing before because I like that. Yeah, and obviously clients like that, too. And, you know, but that's again, it's not to say I don't experiment. I definitely do experiment every so often with certain weddings. And some weddings do have opportunities to experiment. But in the main, I sort of stick to what I what I've always liked, which is just this nice and bright and airy, airy sort of style. You know, and I still photograph my kids today. And that sort of hasn't really changed the way I photograph them. So I guess that also carries over into my weddings, is that the way I photograph my families is still the same ways, you know, when I first started.
06:39
Yeah. And I think part of your strength as a photographer, and part of what you pride yourself on is that relationship and that bond you create with your clients. And that I know, obviously helps people relax. So how does that relationship start with you as a photographer, and as I suppose before you even take the photographs?
06:58
Look, obviously, we always catch up before a wedding. These days, it's more than by Zoom, which is a little bit more difficult. But there are occasions nowadays, where you still catch up in person. I have a home office, which is here, but I meet people at and it's always good to have people in the door. But it's a rare thing nowadays. And a lot of the times, it's now just like this, it's remotely through Zoom or through phone calls. Yeah, making the connections just a little bit more harder. A little more difficult. But you know, you still, we're still talking in your soul? You know, engaging with people. And that's always the first step, is that first meeting, always trying to make the right impression, and be as personable as possible.
07:29
Yeah. Yeah.
07:40
Which I think I am. I think most people, they know, I'm a sort of candid and relaxed guy. And that's the sort of air I try to give off. During my meetings, I don't sort of, there's no pressure tactics or anything. It's just this was a nice casual chat about about their wedding day. And that's really, yeah, that's how we get off on the, that's how we start.
08:00
So that's how you start, how do you continue? How do you strengthen that relationship? And continue it with your correspondents throughout that time with a couple? Is there tips and tricks you can give aspiring photographers to build that connection with their couples?
08:16
Look, yeah, you know, besides continuing the conversation, you know, you're always trying to touch base with clients. And if they do touch base with you, just to give them as much information as possible. Yeah, I do have loads of information websites to sort of give my couples to guide them on their wedding journey. Then there's actual, you know, other things such as pre-wedding shoots that you do. And they're probably the most important ones, because the pre-wedding should really help couples see how you work, get to know you a bit more, and just see that dynamic of, you know, a couple photographer and how it's going to work on their wedding day. And it's always great to sort of also get a set of images as well, from that session.
08:53
Yeah.
08:53
So yeah, those are the sort of the two things I think that sort of continue keeping that bond up in the lead up to the wedding.
09:01
Say, do you find the engagement shoot really integral to that process of getting to know them and building that relationship with them?
09:08
Yeah, I do. I definitely do. And I think it's probably the best thing you could do. If you do end up getting married and choosing a photographer, the engagement session is probably the most crucial thing to do, if you could do it.
09:20
Yeah, definitely. So obviously, it's really important that every couple feels almost the most important couple that you're working with, even though you're working with many and you have a family. How do you manage dealing with that, with so many couples trying to make them all feel really all so many important when you're trying to juggle so many things as a small business owner?
09:42
That's a tough question. It is hard to juggle all those things. Look, obviously you're responding as quick as I can to all communications and I'm just trying to also deliver it as quick as I can as well sometimes is helpful. And, you know, obviously on the wedding day, you know, it's almost a given that you're treating them as the number one priority.
10:02
Yeah.
10:02
But yeah, I guess I'm always trying to—yeah, it's always tough. Juggling the family and the weddings. And especially, probably this year is probably the hardest that's ever been but uh—
10:13
Have you seen your family much this year?
10:17
Oh, good question. On the weekends, not so much, no. Yeah, that's a bit of—but again, the previous two years haven't had that much weddings. I've actually been home quite a lot, you know, 2020 to 21.
10:28
Yeah.
10:28
And when I sort of knew 2022 was going to come and it was going to hit like a wave, and it has hit like a massive tidal wave.
10:35
Yeah.
10:35
So I obviously haven't been around too much. But you know, during the week, I'm around.
10:42
Yeah, yeah. On the wedding day, I know, we all know, the time after the ceremony, or the time before the ceremony, depending on what you're doing with the photographs is really important to find that space. But it's often also a day where the nerves are frayed. The anticipation is high. The adrenaline is pumping. How do you break that down and find the space to capture those really beautiful, candid moments that you're so good at doing?
11:04
Trying to take charge of things is important, you know. When there's a bit of chaos going on in a wedding day, just trying to make sure everyone is not just causing chaos, and keeping everyone sort of on track, as well. I'm not—I mean, I don't sort of direct everyone. But I do try and make sure that things are in some sort of order so that, you know, people know what they're doing. Rather than just you know, helter skelter. And I'm always trying to pull the bride and groom away from the crowds if I can, as much as I can. It's always important to sort of have a bit of peace and quiet for everyone involved.
11:40
Yeah. Have you ever had clients that aren't a good fit for you that you've had to say no to? How do you handle that?
11:47
I don't think I've had too many. I don't think I've had too many kinds of—I can't remember now. Yeah, I don't think I've ever said that.
11:57
Well, that's a good thing!
11:57
I think I've always said yes. Because I guess everyone's different. Everyone's different. Everyone comes to me. And they already know a bit about what, how I am already, which is a good thing. But I get too many cold clients who will have to sort of sit there and convince too much. But there have been, so I can't really think of too many clients I've actually said no to, you know? Yeah, it's it's a real head scratcher that one. Even when I was reading that question, I couldn't think of any I said no to.
11:58
I know there are photographers that have very distinct visions about the clients they want to work with, and ones that might just not be a good fit. And hey, maybe the people that are coming to you are always a good fit. Maybe that's just all there is to it.
12:41
That's probably it. That's probably it. And I do know, most people do come to me, they've already known me from somewhere else, or they've seen my work somehow. And, you know, they sort of have a gist of what's going on. So I haven't had too many, yeah, too many far our clients who haven't fit what I thought I am.
12:57
Well, that's actually a really good thing, I think. What is your favorite tip for keeping on top of client contact? Or do you just do it all through the magic of email and your brain just holds it all?
13:09
Yep, the magic of email. There is my favorite tech. I wish I could have a virtual assistant. That would be nice. I wish I could have an assistant full stop, really, but I don't. Most of my communication has occurred on email. And that's that's what I do, like Zoom.
13:24
How do you manage your clients day to day? Like how do you keep on top of everything that you've got to do with them? Don't tell me that's in your head.
13:31
No, no. I still—I use a tool. There is a tool: Studio Ninja. That's my studio tool that I use to manage clients. I think it's a very popular tool that a lot of photographers use. And it's probably been a lifesaver to be honest, because I think I was using spreadsheets at the start. And that was like a nightmare.
I think everyone agrees that spreadsheets generally is a nightmare. So luckily, I dumped those fairly soon and moved into a system like Studio Ninja. And that sort of keeps me on top of of a lot of things and across a lot of things. And it helps me automate some of the things I do. So I guess if there's one thing that you could say, I think Studio Ninja is the one.
14:09
Well, that's a raving review. How did you keep yourself going as a business during COVID when you weren't or you said you were sort of shut down and not doing any weddings?
14:20
Yeah, COVID was a funny period. I actually slowed down. I almost became a recluse on the wedding scene. I actually sort of pulled back because of the previous, in the lead up to COVID, the previous four years or so, I think I was working incredibly hard. Trying to push and with COVID I sort of took a bit of a step back. I did still post, I still tried to stay on top of a lot of things but a lot of it did slow down. And I had a chance to sort of look back on a lot of my weddings as well. Because you know, sometimes during wedding season you don't even have time to look at some of the galleries you deliver. And I did have a lot of time to look back on a lot of the photos. There's a lot of retrospection. And I did still, you know, I did still run some some campaigns and marketing campaigns during those those few months. But I also took a bit of a step back as well.
15:15
What did you come to the conclusion of as you were spending all that quiet time reflecting, which I think it was a good thing by the sound of it that you did?
15:26
Look, I reflected—look, I definitely thought that maybe I should, I should step away.
15:32
I think most people in the industry will have thought that at some point, though. It was a hard period. Well, we're pretty happy that you've continued on. Is that what drives you? You've said the love stories are what you love the most about weddings is that what drives you to continue?
15:36
It was a hard period. Yeah. You spent so much time at home, and then you, I think it's been the most time I spent with a family as well. So what happened was, there was a couple of weddings, they were a few—the weddings that did happen, they were great. They were amazing. Obviously COVID imposed a few restrictions on some of those weddings. But you know, I guess because the weddings weren't as often, and there'll be far further apart. You know, when I did shot them, I sort of appreciated it more and it sort of made me just think, oh, this isn't—this is not too bad, you know? Like, if I could just come out and continue this, this would be this would still be good. But yeah, obviously. Yeah. This year has been a bit crazy. But yeah, obviously I did still say—I did still continue on with weddings, which is what I end up going through. It is.
Actually, it's funny listening to all those—being with couples, and just just hearing about their stories, you know, during ceremonies and during speeches. It's an awesome thing to hear how a couple met, how their relationship developed. And sometimes even I can be on the floor, sort of teared up as well. And yeah, it's just lovely to hear those sorts of stories as well. Because weddings are a magical thing. They're a wonderful thing. And, you sort of think back about your own wedding as well and about your own your own partner. And yeah, that's what's the thing that drives me to keep going.
17:09
So you stripped it all back, and she thought maybe I might go, maybe I might not. Have you implemented any changes since the pandemic? Has it shaken things up in how you're going to run your business?
17:21
Look, it has shaken things up. Now obviously, I guess I'm not as helter skelter. I'm not as—I think before I was running it, you know, 110% and 120% a thousand miles an hour. I think this year, even though I do have a lot on the plate, it's still a little more relaxed. Not as stressed out as I was in previous years. So I guess I've taken a bit of a step back and slowed down my workflow a bit.
17:52
That's pretty epic. That's a really good outcome. How do you slow down your workflow in weddings?
17:58
I know it's a bit of a bit of a weird one to say, but I have slowed down. But I'm still—look, I'm still pretty good with weddings. I think I've even taken on videography, as well, which is even more crazy.
18:10
Yeah, I'll do events today. That's not slowing down.
18:12
No, that's not slowing down. But you know, I've got processes in place to sort of ensure they're pretty smooth. But yeah, on the main—on the whole, generally, I haven't gone as fast or at least I don't think so anyway. At least I think I'm slowing down. Maybe I'm still going at that fast but but my brain has slowed down.
18:31
Are you taking on less weddings moving forward? Because it sounds like you're really busy as well, prior to pandemic?
18:38
Yes, I was definitely very busy prior to the pandemic. And, you know, I knew this year was going to be a bit crazy. So you know, I sort of let that go and say, look, you know, this might be a one off and next year, next year, even though it's still busy, it's probably not going to be as busy as this year or even the previous year before the pandemic. So, I think 2023 is shaping up to be a lot more peaceful. A lot more karma. And I'm aiming to not do so much.
19:05
I feel like everyone needs to come out of the pandemic feeling that we don't need to be so hustle— hustle centric.
19:12
Yeah, that's right. I definitely don't want to be hustle centric. And that's probably what I was doing before pandemic and now it's a bit like, ah, I can afford to let that go.
19:23
What do you wish that you knew before you started in the wedding industry? What would you have told Joel seven years ago?
19:31
Joel seven years ago, I would have said, yeah, buckle in. I think Joel seven years ago was quite naive about the wedding industry. And thinking that, you know, it would just run itself, to be honest, being in the wedding industry. We still have to hustle actually to get clients. Your clients don't just walk through the door. You have to hustle for them. It's not something that you just sit back and say, oh, they'll come to me. They'll never come to you.
You have to be out there all the time to get them. Otherwise, yeah, you won't get any, really. And that's probably the key advice, I'd give myself younger jobs or get ready for the hustle. You'll be working more on the hustle than anything else in front of the camera and developing the photos is the easy part. The hustle is the hard part.
20:19
And I think that's the difficulty that people who start their own business probably know about—is that it's a) it's not doing what the core of what you think you'll be doing. In your case, you think you'd be shooting all the time and nothing else. Everything else sort of fade away, whereas actually, there's admin and clients and all that stuff. But on top of that, like you have to find that balance between not hustling, but then also hustling because who else is gonna hustle if it's not you? So have you struck the balance? Post pandemic?
20:49
I hope so. I really do hope so. I mean, I have to anyway, because I think before I was a bit unhealthy, and I was just focusing a lot on the hustle and just trying to get as good as many people through the door as possible. Yeah. And this year, the focus is less on on trying to get as many people as I can as to more, not more, but less, I guess, at a more relaxed pace.
21:15
Yeah. Do you have any advice for running a wedding business in Australia, as a wedding photographer? Well as yourself being a wedding photographer.
21:26
But my only advice other than the one I've just given myself about is that focusing on on getting people is look, it's hard work. It's definitely hard work. Not like, you know, it's not an easy thing to do. You know, it's easy to take a photo and easily develop some photos. But you know, actually, running a business is always going to be a hard thing. Like any other job is that you gotta—yeah, but there's a lot of peripheral things you need to focus on rather than just your core photography work. There's a lot of administration and marketing and there's people skills as well that you need to work on.
I think some photographers may or may not have that either, but yeah, there's a lot other than photography that you need to focus on when you start a wedding photography business. And, you know, it's not all glitz and glamour, which is what some people might think when they look at our portfolios. I mean, we do put out that sort of vibe, but to be honest, that's a lot of hard work goes into creating that vibe.
22:27
Mhm-hmm, a hundred percent. So what is next for you and Joel Mailo photography and Ava Me?
22:34
Surviving the year.
22:37
Do you have another big season coming up in October?
22:39
I do. Yes, I do. Definitely October, September, October, will be will be nuts, will be bonkers. But I think, you know, once that sort of subsides, and I think people will sort of go back to a bit of normality. I think we'll finally be back into my own by next year. And that will, you know, hopefully, bring me a bit more peace. Peace? Peace of mind? I'm still gonna enjoy, I still enjoy every wedding, each and every one of them. Even though sometimes it can get quite hectic. So yeah, I plan on continuing doing the videography thing, although it's kinda of grown up new challenges itself as well. Dealing with the ugly but yes, I still think it's also a good thing.
23:24
Well, I hope you survive October and the rest of the year. And I hope that you continue, like, it's always been so evident that you love what you do. And you have such a great connection with your clients. And I really hope that it continues for you because it sounds like it's still there, which is the most important thing.
23:41
It is. There was a bit of retrospection and thinking during the pandemic, but look, I still love doing it. And whenever I show up to a wedding, I keep saying, yep, this this great is awesome.
23:56
That's perfect. Thank you so much for joining us today. It was such a joy to talk to you after so long.
24:02
All right. Thank you very much.
24:06
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I hope you enjoyed getting to know Joel as much as I did. If you would like a written transcript of today's episode, or to find out more information about Joel, head on over to polkadotwedding.com/podcast.
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